chanduv23
12-15 10:11 AM
Denied licenses, legal immigrants sue state Registry
Say status wrongly contested
By Yvonne Abraham, Globe Staff | December 15, 2006
Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles employees are routinely and unlawfully denying driver's licenses to immigrants who are here legally, according to a class-action law suit filed yesterday.
According to the suit, Registry workers asked the immigrants for proof of legal residency when they were not authorized to do so. The workers then denied licenses to the applicants, incorrectly concluding that the immigrants had not demonstrated they were in the United States legally, the suit alleges.
In all cases, the immigrants' lawyers said, the Registry workers were overstepping their legal authority and violating the immigrants' constitutional rights.
"They don't have the authority to enforce federal immigration law," said Sarah Wunsch, staff attorney for the ACLU of Massachusetts, who is representing the seven immigrants who brought the suit. "But they've taken it upon themselves to do it, and they're doing it wrong. It's not an isolated case here and there. This appears to be policy."
Wunsch said hundreds of other immigrants have similarly been denied licenses.
A spokeswoman for the Registry of Motor Vehicles declined to comment, saying Registry lawyers had not yet had a chance to review the lawsuit.
Under state policy, applicants for a driver's license must present proof of their identity by providing a valid Social Security number, which the Registry checks against a Social Security Administration database.
In order to obtain a valid Social Security number, an immigrant must be in the country legally. Applicants must also show proof of their age and address.
All of the plaintiffs presented valid Social Security numbers when they applied for licenses, Wunsch said. Even so, Registry workers rejected their applications.
In some of the cases, applicants were not given any reason why they were rejected. In the others, Registry employees improperly sought additional proof of the applicants' immigration status and then said the documents were not adequate.
Registry spokeswoman Amy Breton, speaking generally, said Registry employees do not enforce immigration laws.
But she added: "Certainly, we've had to become more familiar with immigration documents. We want to make sure we are issuing licenses to Massachusetts residents, because that is what the law calls for."
She said the Registry has been responsive to complaints that immigrants have been treated unfairly. On Wednesday night, the head of the agency, Registrar Anne L. Collins, met with about 300 immigrants and their advocates in Hyannis to hear their concerns about the license application process, she said.
In many cases, Breton said, immigrants who feel they have been unfairly denied a license can file an appeal, which costs $50.
Lawyers for the seven plaintiffs say their clients should not have to spend money to challenge what is clearly a discriminatory practice.
"The Registry seems to be asking immigrants to produce justification for their presence in the United States," said lead attorney Kenneth Berman of Nutter McClennen & Fish.
The lawyers said that the problems demonstrate the danger of having state employees who are not trained in immigration law taking on enforcement of that law.
Two immigrant advocacy groups are also plaintiffs in the suit, alleging that the Registry's discrimination against immigrants forces them to divert time and resources from other activities.
"This is extremely common," said Desmond FitzGerald, an immigration lawyer who represents four immigrants who were denied licenses in a separate case to be heard early next year. "We want the Registry to regulate the safety of our roads, not enforce immigration rules."
One of FitzGerald's clients, the wife of a prominent Spanish scientist who is in the United States on a visa reserved for persons of exceptional ability, was denied a license because Registry workers who asked for proof of her legal residency did not recognize her visa. After she sued the Registry, the agency settled the case, granting her a license.
One of the plaintiffs in the class action suit filed yesterday is an immigrant from Zimbabwe who has a pending application for asylum. The woman, a nurse, has work authorization and had already been granted a driver's license.
When she tried to renew that license this week, she produced her old license, her Social Security number, and proof of her car insurance coverage, which showed her address. Still, she was asked for her passport.
The woman, who fled political persecution in Zimbabwe, does not have a current, government-issued passport from that country. She showed the Registry employee a document showing that the US government had granted her permission to remain here. Her application was still denied, as was her daughter's application for a learner's permit.
"Given how dependent we all are on the right to drive an automobile, the denial of a license is causing real hardship to the people I represent," Berman said.
The issue of driver's licenses for immigrants has become highly charged over the past year, as the national debate on immigration has grown more fractious.
The question of issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants was a matter of fierce dispute during this year's gubernatorial race, in which Governor-elect Deval Patrick said he would consider giving licenses to those who are here illegally. He was pilloried for that suggestion by his opponent, Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healey, who with Governor Mitt Romney has taken an aggressive stance against illegal immigration.
Immigrants' advocates said they worry that the Republican administration's zeal is causing Registry employees to punish immigrants who had followed all the rules.
Earlier this year, I haad problems getting a driver's lisence in CT, the officer would not accept my h1b papers and would say it is fake. I wrote a strong complaint to DMV and they replied back to me that I must go back to DMV and go through the process again and if I have trouble again, I must report to DMV. I went next time and I got it.
Most times it is improper education that makes people do it. They keep hearing negative thhings about immigrants and they be advised by their bosses to strictly scrutinize immigrants, and they try to experiment their crack down on us. It is very unfortunate that such things are happening.
There seems to be an agenda to catch illegal immigrants. As Illegals who cross the border are getting busted through raids, those who violate visa regulations or overstay visas, or do not have proper work authorization come under strict scrutiny when they approach govt agencies. Unfortunately, it is us legal immigrants who are bearing the brunt because we also go through the same scrutinity. DMV people are not educated in immigration law ,so is the common public and it is this process that's hurting us a lot.
Say status wrongly contested
By Yvonne Abraham, Globe Staff | December 15, 2006
Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles employees are routinely and unlawfully denying driver's licenses to immigrants who are here legally, according to a class-action law suit filed yesterday.
According to the suit, Registry workers asked the immigrants for proof of legal residency when they were not authorized to do so. The workers then denied licenses to the applicants, incorrectly concluding that the immigrants had not demonstrated they were in the United States legally, the suit alleges.
In all cases, the immigrants' lawyers said, the Registry workers were overstepping their legal authority and violating the immigrants' constitutional rights.
"They don't have the authority to enforce federal immigration law," said Sarah Wunsch, staff attorney for the ACLU of Massachusetts, who is representing the seven immigrants who brought the suit. "But they've taken it upon themselves to do it, and they're doing it wrong. It's not an isolated case here and there. This appears to be policy."
Wunsch said hundreds of other immigrants have similarly been denied licenses.
A spokeswoman for the Registry of Motor Vehicles declined to comment, saying Registry lawyers had not yet had a chance to review the lawsuit.
Under state policy, applicants for a driver's license must present proof of their identity by providing a valid Social Security number, which the Registry checks against a Social Security Administration database.
In order to obtain a valid Social Security number, an immigrant must be in the country legally. Applicants must also show proof of their age and address.
All of the plaintiffs presented valid Social Security numbers when they applied for licenses, Wunsch said. Even so, Registry workers rejected their applications.
In some of the cases, applicants were not given any reason why they were rejected. In the others, Registry employees improperly sought additional proof of the applicants' immigration status and then said the documents were not adequate.
Registry spokeswoman Amy Breton, speaking generally, said Registry employees do not enforce immigration laws.
But she added: "Certainly, we've had to become more familiar with immigration documents. We want to make sure we are issuing licenses to Massachusetts residents, because that is what the law calls for."
She said the Registry has been responsive to complaints that immigrants have been treated unfairly. On Wednesday night, the head of the agency, Registrar Anne L. Collins, met with about 300 immigrants and their advocates in Hyannis to hear their concerns about the license application process, she said.
In many cases, Breton said, immigrants who feel they have been unfairly denied a license can file an appeal, which costs $50.
Lawyers for the seven plaintiffs say their clients should not have to spend money to challenge what is clearly a discriminatory practice.
"The Registry seems to be asking immigrants to produce justification for their presence in the United States," said lead attorney Kenneth Berman of Nutter McClennen & Fish.
The lawyers said that the problems demonstrate the danger of having state employees who are not trained in immigration law taking on enforcement of that law.
Two immigrant advocacy groups are also plaintiffs in the suit, alleging that the Registry's discrimination against immigrants forces them to divert time and resources from other activities.
"This is extremely common," said Desmond FitzGerald, an immigration lawyer who represents four immigrants who were denied licenses in a separate case to be heard early next year. "We want the Registry to regulate the safety of our roads, not enforce immigration rules."
One of FitzGerald's clients, the wife of a prominent Spanish scientist who is in the United States on a visa reserved for persons of exceptional ability, was denied a license because Registry workers who asked for proof of her legal residency did not recognize her visa. After she sued the Registry, the agency settled the case, granting her a license.
One of the plaintiffs in the class action suit filed yesterday is an immigrant from Zimbabwe who has a pending application for asylum. The woman, a nurse, has work authorization and had already been granted a driver's license.
When she tried to renew that license this week, she produced her old license, her Social Security number, and proof of her car insurance coverage, which showed her address. Still, she was asked for her passport.
The woman, who fled political persecution in Zimbabwe, does not have a current, government-issued passport from that country. She showed the Registry employee a document showing that the US government had granted her permission to remain here. Her application was still denied, as was her daughter's application for a learner's permit.
"Given how dependent we all are on the right to drive an automobile, the denial of a license is causing real hardship to the people I represent," Berman said.
The issue of driver's licenses for immigrants has become highly charged over the past year, as the national debate on immigration has grown more fractious.
The question of issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants was a matter of fierce dispute during this year's gubernatorial race, in which Governor-elect Deval Patrick said he would consider giving licenses to those who are here illegally. He was pilloried for that suggestion by his opponent, Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healey, who with Governor Mitt Romney has taken an aggressive stance against illegal immigration.
Immigrants' advocates said they worry that the Republican administration's zeal is causing Registry employees to punish immigrants who had followed all the rules.
Earlier this year, I haad problems getting a driver's lisence in CT, the officer would not accept my h1b papers and would say it is fake. I wrote a strong complaint to DMV and they replied back to me that I must go back to DMV and go through the process again and if I have trouble again, I must report to DMV. I went next time and I got it.
Most times it is improper education that makes people do it. They keep hearing negative thhings about immigrants and they be advised by their bosses to strictly scrutinize immigrants, and they try to experiment their crack down on us. It is very unfortunate that such things are happening.
There seems to be an agenda to catch illegal immigrants. As Illegals who cross the border are getting busted through raids, those who violate visa regulations or overstay visas, or do not have proper work authorization come under strict scrutiny when they approach govt agencies. Unfortunately, it is us legal immigrants who are bearing the brunt because we also go through the same scrutinity. DMV people are not educated in immigration law ,so is the common public and it is this process that's hurting us a lot.
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kittu1991
08-26 02:53 PM
Even if its multiplied by 100 we should be ok, if the USCIS does a good of not waisting visas by doing their best in the month of Sep. Say we have 6500 * 2 .25 (Family) = 15000people waiting from EB2 2004. Looking at the spillover numbers from last year, we might be lucky enough. Just trying to be optimistic for the next 35 days.
We received our 2nd biometric appointment notice for Sep 11th. Our Notice date is Sep 19th 2007. Just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for something good. :)
We received our 2nd biometric appointment notice for Sep 11th. Our Notice date is Sep 19th 2007. Just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for something good. :)
ak_2006
04-27 10:28 PM
Hello Folks
I just donated 25 USD and didnot become DONOR. Is this system take care automatecilly or Admin has to assign donor status. ?
Subscription Number: S-39675586V4235911J
Yes, Admins will send you confirmation and at the same time your status changes to Donar.
I just donated 25 USD and didnot become DONOR. Is this system take care automatecilly or Admin has to assign donor status. ?
Subscription Number: S-39675586V4235911J
Yes, Admins will send you confirmation and at the same time your status changes to Donar.
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gsc999
09-22 01:06 PM
>>>>-sending more flowers
please.. enough of flowers..
>>>>-a huge rally in Silicon Valley
Now you have seen what goes and does not go into a rally. This is a complicated task so it has to be planned, as was the DC one.
>>>-candlelight vigil at congress
This will work if high school students do it. not "highly skilled" immigrants.
>>>>-mass letter mailings from all of us
Yeah.. spam them with emails..
>>>-human chains
This involves same complexity as the rally. so its not an easy task.
>>>-hunger strike?
This will be stupidity. ( I am not calling you stupid, but the idea. so no need to jump on me). Eat your food and live healty and happy. Is GC worth going on hunger strikes and suicide attempts? Thats too much of desperation. You are not from Afghanistan or Kenya right..?
>>>-etc
What else?
Oh yeah.. the "drain stoppers" stuff.. thats again stupid. Thats too much literal comparison to brain drain.
----
Ok, now that you have negated all ideas from other people, we anxiously wait for your ideas :)
I am sure you are not just some reactive person who can only criticize but can also provide us with a solution.
Lets hear em.
please.. enough of flowers..
>>>>-a huge rally in Silicon Valley
Now you have seen what goes and does not go into a rally. This is a complicated task so it has to be planned, as was the DC one.
>>>-candlelight vigil at congress
This will work if high school students do it. not "highly skilled" immigrants.
>>>>-mass letter mailings from all of us
Yeah.. spam them with emails..
>>>-human chains
This involves same complexity as the rally. so its not an easy task.
>>>-hunger strike?
This will be stupidity. ( I am not calling you stupid, but the idea. so no need to jump on me). Eat your food and live healty and happy. Is GC worth going on hunger strikes and suicide attempts? Thats too much of desperation. You are not from Afghanistan or Kenya right..?
>>>-etc
What else?
Oh yeah.. the "drain stoppers" stuff.. thats again stupid. Thats too much literal comparison to brain drain.
----
Ok, now that you have negated all ideas from other people, we anxiously wait for your ideas :)
I am sure you are not just some reactive person who can only criticize but can also provide us with a solution.
Lets hear em.
more...
gsc999
04-16 01:27 PM
Dear snehaledu, You raise a good point. Am I IV policeman? The answer is NO. Guess, it is the responsibility of all the members to police themselves. And I saw that it was not happening here, thus my question about the relevance of this thread.
I support Sanju.
Moreover, IV doesn't represent INDIAN employment based legal immigrants, this forum is for all nationalities. Threads like these make this forum seem like it is relevant to only Indians. We need to be mindful of other members who are not from India.
I support Sanju.
Moreover, IV doesn't represent INDIAN employment based legal immigrants, this forum is for all nationalities. Threads like these make this forum seem like it is relevant to only Indians. We need to be mindful of other members who are not from India.
saturnring11
08-10 11:01 PM
This looks pretty authentic. It wouldn't make any sense for a lawyer to fake this unless someone hacked their website. There is a good possibility that the date is May 08, 2006 for EB2 I / C
more...
Winner
04-02 04:49 PM
Dude, i dunno about this...
But this guy was correct for the last month about the retrogression about EB3-ROW....
BR
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I just think it�s a waste of time 'predicting'
Anyways, don't you think we should behave a little better in public forums? (I'm referring to the language in your post)
But this guy was correct for the last month about the retrogression about EB3-ROW....
BR
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I just think it�s a waste of time 'predicting'
Anyways, don't you think we should behave a little better in public forums? (I'm referring to the language in your post)
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needhelp!
04-02 01:24 PM
Seems as though every time there is a funding drive there are always people who come with questions that have been answered so many times before. It almost seems that these inflammatory posts are deliberate. All the answers to such questions are already on the forums and it takes less time to search than to post.
more...
casinoroyale
06-25 02:41 PM
" application is accepted ", just to be sure, you mean, its not " application is approved " ?
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Kodi
06-28 04:04 PM
1. If your labor was filed in Nov 06 or earlier then you can file for 7th year extension (based on rule that labor pending for more than 365 days)
2. I'm not 100% sure but i think when your labor is approved if PDs are current, you can file i-140, 485, EAD together and get EAD by before your visa expires and you would be fine.
3. Labor substitution will not be allowed after July 17th, and there are a lot approved labors whose beneficiaries have left the company. Employers are willing to use these labors for whatever they get (excuse me!). If you really want to stay in US, find an approved labor with PD older than Nov 06 and then file I140/485/EAD, if you don't get EAD by Dec 07 then file 7th year ext based on the GC pending more than 365 days. Hurry up for labor..
Aren't you allow to extend your H1 if your I-140 is approved and I-485 is pending?
2. I'm not 100% sure but i think when your labor is approved if PDs are current, you can file i-140, 485, EAD together and get EAD by before your visa expires and you would be fine.
3. Labor substitution will not be allowed after July 17th, and there are a lot approved labors whose beneficiaries have left the company. Employers are willing to use these labors for whatever they get (excuse me!). If you really want to stay in US, find an approved labor with PD older than Nov 06 and then file I140/485/EAD, if you don't get EAD by Dec 07 then file 7th year ext based on the GC pending more than 365 days. Hurry up for labor..
Aren't you allow to extend your H1 if your I-140 is approved and I-485 is pending?
more...
GCBy3000
05-14 12:05 PM
I have seen lots of people posting more than 300+ in this forum and never contributed a dime. If you ask they shamelessly say it is not mandatory to contribute. Everyone knows it is not mandatory, but if you are not self centred and stingy, you will feel to contribute at least once if not recurring after spending months on IV forum.
I would request everyone to update their signature with the contribution. AGAIN IT IS A REQUEST and NOT AN ORDER.
Thanks a lot, YES. Apart from the media initiative, we need the funds to pay our lobbyist. We can make this happen. Today and tommorrow are big days. Please contribute especially if you have never contributed.
I would request everyone to update their signature with the contribution. AGAIN IT IS A REQUEST and NOT AN ORDER.
Thanks a lot, YES. Apart from the media initiative, we need the funds to pay our lobbyist. We can make this happen. Today and tommorrow are big days. Please contribute especially if you have never contributed.
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gcnotfiledyet
02-28 07:15 PM
If the amnesty bill passes, you are better off pointing immigration violation and perhaps tearing you passport and claiming being illegal
Before you tear up passport just remember that you were fingerprinted/ photoed multiple times before coming here and they can easily retrieve your records. Also if you change your names your degrees/experience will be worthless. Be careful while throwing out such comments.
Is GC worth becoming illegal? If nothing works then leave it on fate and go back. India is not a worthless country. It gives huge oppurtunities. Sometimes I think that if westerners can go there and make money then there should be something wrong with me that I am so scared to go back.
Before you tear up passport just remember that you were fingerprinted/ photoed multiple times before coming here and they can easily retrieve your records. Also if you change your names your degrees/experience will be worthless. Be careful while throwing out such comments.
Is GC worth becoming illegal? If nothing works then leave it on fate and go back. India is not a worthless country. It gives huge oppurtunities. Sometimes I think that if westerners can go there and make money then there should be something wrong with me that I am so scared to go back.
more...
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aadimanav
08-22 02:27 PM
Yes I have receipt the Receipt. Reached the 485 on July 2, 07. Finger Printing notice already receipt.. due in first week Sep. You can check online status here:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
What is ur priority date
....The online status says 485 received and pending." means?
Did you apply 485 in August 07 and already your status is showing pending? Did you receive a receipt notice?
Please enlighten ?
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
What is ur priority date
....The online status says 485 received and pending." means?
Did you apply 485 in August 07 and already your status is showing pending? Did you receive a receipt notice?
Please enlighten ?
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gunsnkars
07-19 02:56 PM
What Raj is saying is get your GC first and process your wife's through family based which would take a very loong time...10 years!!!
Now to my views..Your wife will be able to piggyback on your 485 application irrespective of her status H1-B or H-4 or F-1..She's your wife PERIOD...no problems there!!what i don't understand is this bangwagon "lets apply ours first and include our wife's petition later when PD becomes current"...Instead y not apply both petitions together when PD becomes current again!!Atleast you wouldn't have to worry what if my petition gets approved b4 my PD becomes current!!!And god knows how many years of H1-B extensions they would give you once you have your applied 485 receipt!!!At the end of the day it is your choice!!!
Now to my views..Your wife will be able to piggyback on your 485 application irrespective of her status H1-B or H-4 or F-1..She's your wife PERIOD...no problems there!!what i don't understand is this bangwagon "lets apply ours first and include our wife's petition later when PD becomes current"...Instead y not apply both petitions together when PD becomes current again!!Atleast you wouldn't have to worry what if my petition gets approved b4 my PD becomes current!!!And god knows how many years of H1-B extensions they would give you once you have your applied 485 receipt!!!At the end of the day it is your choice!!!
more...
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mahendra_t
07-19 01:44 PM
Was your chack got cashed or not ?
PD -Jan 06, EB2
I-140 Approved
I-485 - Filed on July 2, NSC Received by R.Mitchell @ 9.01 a.m.
Checks not cashed until today (07/19/07 10:00 a.m.)
PD -Jan 06, EB2
I-140 Approved
I-485 - Filed on July 2, NSC Received by R.Mitchell @ 9.01 a.m.
Checks not cashed until today (07/19/07 10:00 a.m.)
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ronhira
06-03 10:33 AM
btw, how this is relevant on this forum..... becoz this is not a news forum..... here is the answer......
6 out of 13 finalist on this prestigious competition are all kids of (high skilled) immigrants from india, who came here on h1 or similar visas and are now on gc or their parents are still waiting for gc......
this is very important to show the value and positive influence high skilled immigrants bring in to the society they live in..... this is a positive externality of high skilled immigrants like us..... & adds one point in our camp...... simple eb3/eb2 tracking won't cut it if that is all u understand from immigration forum....
6 out of 13 finalist on this prestigious competition are all kids of (high skilled) immigrants from india, who came here on h1 or similar visas and are now on gc or their parents are still waiting for gc......
this is very important to show the value and positive influence high skilled immigrants bring in to the society they live in..... this is a positive externality of high skilled immigrants like us..... & adds one point in our camp...... simple eb3/eb2 tracking won't cut it if that is all u understand from immigration forum....
more...
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dilipb
06-23 04:00 PM
forgot one thing.
NO short forms.
On the check write US department of homeland security
NO dept.
NO USCIS
DONT forget "US"
NO short forms.
On the check write US department of homeland security
NO dept.
NO USCIS
DONT forget "US"
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salshaik
03-24 08:46 PM
KrishGreen and others,
I understand from the posts that some of you got i-140 and other perm labor documents. Would it be fine to write on g-639 as mentioned below to get I-140 and other perm related documents
Request for a copy of approved i-140, petition of i-140 and perm labor documents.
Could you be more specific or elaborate what to mention on the g-639 form under #4 which says Identify the documents records , or information you are seeking?
Please validate and this would greatly help to others. The only reason I am asking is I am not sure what documents can be requested such as perm labor can be requested or not. Your help greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
SS
I understand from the posts that some of you got i-140 and other perm labor documents. Would it be fine to write on g-639 as mentioned below to get I-140 and other perm related documents
Request for a copy of approved i-140, petition of i-140 and perm labor documents.
Could you be more specific or elaborate what to mention on the g-639 form under #4 which says Identify the documents records , or information you are seeking?
Please validate and this would greatly help to others. The only reason I am asking is I am not sure what documents can be requested such as perm labor can be requested or not. Your help greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
SS
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oldschool
08-15 11:33 AM
They will know because when you fill out the N-400 application form, you are required to list your employment details for the last 5 years.
can they really deny you on this basis alone?
can they really deny you on this basis alone?
ItIsNotFunny
10-06 11:04 AM
These are not going to fix the issue at large about limited GC numbers.
We need to make sure bills like HR5882 get passed. So we need to focus on how to make this a central issue in current politics.
We need to do much bigger than a single day news ... something for which main stream media pays attention in +ve light.
I second this. It will take 1 more year for USCIS just to come out of 2001 for EB3 I unless 5882 passes!
We need to make sure bills like HR5882 get passed. So we need to focus on how to make this a central issue in current politics.
We need to do much bigger than a single day news ... something for which main stream media pays attention in +ve light.
I second this. It will take 1 more year for USCIS just to come out of 2001 for EB3 I unless 5882 passes!
krishmunn
05-10 10:07 AM
So the question still remains. Which is better school for MS with a little lesser load on the pocket.
I wonder why every dicussion has to take a E2 vs E3, regional discrimination and other such things. Can't we have a proper engaging, fruitful discussion on any topic. Learn to respect and appreciate others. In God's scheme of things nobody is greater or smaller.
Good luck.
If someone is looking for a Masters just to upgrade to EB2, any accredited program will do. Verify the accreditation (of school and program) using the link which I posted earlier
I wonder why every dicussion has to take a E2 vs E3, regional discrimination and other such things. Can't we have a proper engaging, fruitful discussion on any topic. Learn to respect and appreciate others. In God's scheme of things nobody is greater or smaller.
Good luck.
If someone is looking for a Masters just to upgrade to EB2, any accredited program will do. Verify the accreditation (of school and program) using the link which I posted earlier
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