kondur_007
04-10 03:44 PM
Thanks Kondur. That was a very good presentation of the numbers. I very much appreciate it.
Now,
1. Why did EB1 last year needed spillover visas, although it was current all the time? If a category is current, isn't that it has less demand than allocated numbers?
2. As per May bulletin, EB4 might need a cut off. So we cannot expect any spillover from EB4. So that is clear. Now the spillover chances are from EB5, EB2 ROW and EB1(?). I am including EB1 because, given the current economy over the past year, should there be a better possibility of more spillover from EB2 ROW and EB1 compared to last year?
3. Also why are the total EB numbers different in different fiscal years (e.g., 141020 in FY2009, 162949 in FY 2008 and 154497 in FY2007)? In FYs 2007 and 2008 did the extra visas come from Family based while it did not for FY 2009? If so, why is it so?
4. Based on Pending 485 data of March 2010, I barely see few hundred EB4s. And hardly considerable number of EB1s. What's going on? If we go by this data, we should be getting good chunk of spillover numbers...
http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Green%20Card/Green%20Card%20Through%20a%20Job/Employment%20Based%20I-485%20Pending%20Inventory-Total%203-8-2010.pdf
Thanks,
Here is what I think; possible answers/comments. I am not an expert but am thinking following:
1. Any category being "current" is based on "DOS's guesstimate" based on demand numbers they receive and so it is never "perfect". So yes, you are true that technically EB1 should be retrogressed "slightly", but considering the small number of spillover (now called fall down numbers) it used, it may not have been able to be predicted prior to the end of fiscal year.
2. That is the biggest hope and assumption that there will be more fall down from EB5 and EB1 due to "economy". Caveat is, more and more people are trying to switch to "current" categories and so actual usage may not be commensurate with "economy". We have never been given any "usage data". So everything is a pure guess on this front. Looking at data, I honestly do not see any difference in number of EB1 cases from 2008-2009-2010.
3. Yes, it is due to "spillover" from Family based category. (This is where DOS is using the word "spillover" and any visa number that go from one EB to another EB category, they all it "fall across" and "fall down"). These numbers used to be higher before and now lower as they are more efficient in using as many numbers as possible for a particular category.
4. Pending 485 data is extremely deceptive for "current" categories. Look at the approval timeframe of EB2 ROW or EB1 cases; majority of them are approved before ever counted as "pending". Remember. "pending cases" DO NOT reflect "usage".
The main thing missing in all these is the "USAGE", this should be a very easy information that can be made available by DOS, but they have not. If I had one "wish" to get one piece of info; would be this: "number of visa used in each category every month and YTD". Without that info, no prediction of spillover/fall down-across is ever possible.
Now,
1. Why did EB1 last year needed spillover visas, although it was current all the time? If a category is current, isn't that it has less demand than allocated numbers?
2. As per May bulletin, EB4 might need a cut off. So we cannot expect any spillover from EB4. So that is clear. Now the spillover chances are from EB5, EB2 ROW and EB1(?). I am including EB1 because, given the current economy over the past year, should there be a better possibility of more spillover from EB2 ROW and EB1 compared to last year?
3. Also why are the total EB numbers different in different fiscal years (e.g., 141020 in FY2009, 162949 in FY 2008 and 154497 in FY2007)? In FYs 2007 and 2008 did the extra visas come from Family based while it did not for FY 2009? If so, why is it so?
4. Based on Pending 485 data of March 2010, I barely see few hundred EB4s. And hardly considerable number of EB1s. What's going on? If we go by this data, we should be getting good chunk of spillover numbers...
http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Green%20Card/Green%20Card%20Through%20a%20Job/Employment%20Based%20I-485%20Pending%20Inventory-Total%203-8-2010.pdf
Thanks,
Here is what I think; possible answers/comments. I am not an expert but am thinking following:
1. Any category being "current" is based on "DOS's guesstimate" based on demand numbers they receive and so it is never "perfect". So yes, you are true that technically EB1 should be retrogressed "slightly", but considering the small number of spillover (now called fall down numbers) it used, it may not have been able to be predicted prior to the end of fiscal year.
2. That is the biggest hope and assumption that there will be more fall down from EB5 and EB1 due to "economy". Caveat is, more and more people are trying to switch to "current" categories and so actual usage may not be commensurate with "economy". We have never been given any "usage data". So everything is a pure guess on this front. Looking at data, I honestly do not see any difference in number of EB1 cases from 2008-2009-2010.
3. Yes, it is due to "spillover" from Family based category. (This is where DOS is using the word "spillover" and any visa number that go from one EB to another EB category, they all it "fall across" and "fall down"). These numbers used to be higher before and now lower as they are more efficient in using as many numbers as possible for a particular category.
4. Pending 485 data is extremely deceptive for "current" categories. Look at the approval timeframe of EB2 ROW or EB1 cases; majority of them are approved before ever counted as "pending". Remember. "pending cases" DO NOT reflect "usage".
The main thing missing in all these is the "USAGE", this should be a very easy information that can be made available by DOS, but they have not. If I had one "wish" to get one piece of info; would be this: "number of visa used in each category every month and YTD". Without that info, no prediction of spillover/fall down-across is ever possible.
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amitjoey
01-18 05:26 PM
Thanks Pappu :D (Pappu, left a PM, pl reply. Wouldn't mind if you don't come back , you are busy. Thanks)
Several hundred members ... only about 50 posts !!
That's true, once it is posted on a web site, most likely many members of that site will come read the thread. How many will read, will go on increasing each day, east posting.
Extraordinary effort perm2gc and others, please keep it up !!
Members , give it a thought ... give a free gift, more the members ...best our efforts.
Thanks to all of you who are helping with this effort. 57 new members in the last 2 days and another 100 new last week. It has been very effective.
Several hundred members ... only about 50 posts !!
That's true, once it is posted on a web site, most likely many members of that site will come read the thread. How many will read, will go on increasing each day, east posting.
Extraordinary effort perm2gc and others, please keep it up !!
Members , give it a thought ... give a free gift, more the members ...best our efforts.
Thanks to all of you who are helping with this effort. 57 new members in the last 2 days and another 100 new last week. It has been very effective.
californian_GC
01-16 12:11 PM
I signed up through my BOA account. I made $20 recurring payments for the next 12 months.
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feedfront
09-20 12:06 PM
Does anyone know, how much attorney gonna charge to reply RFE?
more...
Macaca
04-04 03:53 PM
They have never said anything about GCs. If they have, show me where.
From here (http://www.ieeeusa.org/policy/issues/).
IEEE-USA will support public policies to ensure greater equity in the recruitment, utilization and compensation of US and foreign–born high tech workers. Priorities include:
Expediting visa processing for international researchers, scholars, teachers and students to travel and study in the U.S.
Reforming the H-1B and other non-immigrant (temporary) visa programs to prevent abuses, including displacement of US workers and underpayment of foreign workers.
Enacting legislation to facilitate the admission of foreign professionals with advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering and managerial fields as legal permanent residents.
From here (http://www.ieeeusa.org/policy/issues/).
IEEE-USA will support public policies to ensure greater equity in the recruitment, utilization and compensation of US and foreign–born high tech workers. Priorities include:
Expediting visa processing for international researchers, scholars, teachers and students to travel and study in the U.S.
Reforming the H-1B and other non-immigrant (temporary) visa programs to prevent abuses, including displacement of US workers and underpayment of foreign workers.
Enacting legislation to facilitate the admission of foreign professionals with advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering and managerial fields as legal permanent residents.
pappu
06-11 09:31 AM
We updated the content of this mail today. Please resend if you had sent yesterday.
more...
ak27
01-22 06:10 PM
I do not believe anyone has called yet... Please go ahead make calls to sentators. Core memebers were also suggesting that we get in touch with Congressmen/Congresswomen.
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imneedy
05-06 08:03 PM
We thought the same way 3 years ago, 2 years ago, and last year too, but nothing happened, it could be another year and we could be sitting here in same situation 2 years from now. Question is when IV has already collected money for FOIA request than why it is not proceeding in that direction ? We get it in time or not is not the question now....
I second that
I second that
more...
nojoke
09-19 02:33 PM
nojoke, do you even have a job?
why on earth are you so worried.
Your rants are getting endless, you are spreading pessimism everywhere. like you were a hedge fund manager and are going to file bankruptcy.
btw, during the dotcom thing, just the telecom company hit was close to $750 billion. And with the big VC funded ventures completely got wiped out, the losses were much large.
also the people that were affected, huge job losses. thousands of people showing up at small job fairs. it was a recession. economies go into recession, and come out of it.
And media likes pessimism, they like destruction, mayhem. If you have not figured that out yet, it is time.
yes, some of the concerns are valid, but you talk like nostradamus, as if you know whats happenin. like the country is going to pack its bags and every citizen is going back to where their ancestors came from. get real.
economies fail, its how much time it takes to bounce back is what matters.
I would say just chill, spend quality hours at your job then you did before, keep it secure, spend time with your family. live your life happily.
We are citizens of the world and with the globalization that has spread, the ripple effect is going to be felt far and wide.
These Investment banks has presence in over 50 countries worldwide.
You can run, but you cannot hide.
You seem to be in this forum accusing me of discussing in this forum?:mad:Great. Get real. If I talk about the facts, it means I am spreading fear? If I stop talking about it, then the situation will magically go away? Nostradamus? I am saying what is in the news. Looks like you are predicting that everything will be fine and rosy. It is a free country. You want to disagree with me go ahead. Don't tell me not to talk about it.
Don't be delusional. I will be happy if things work out well for us. And don't think not talking about the problem will some how make it go away.
why on earth are you so worried.
Your rants are getting endless, you are spreading pessimism everywhere. like you were a hedge fund manager and are going to file bankruptcy.
btw, during the dotcom thing, just the telecom company hit was close to $750 billion. And with the big VC funded ventures completely got wiped out, the losses were much large.
also the people that were affected, huge job losses. thousands of people showing up at small job fairs. it was a recession. economies go into recession, and come out of it.
And media likes pessimism, they like destruction, mayhem. If you have not figured that out yet, it is time.
yes, some of the concerns are valid, but you talk like nostradamus, as if you know whats happenin. like the country is going to pack its bags and every citizen is going back to where their ancestors came from. get real.
economies fail, its how much time it takes to bounce back is what matters.
I would say just chill, spend quality hours at your job then you did before, keep it secure, spend time with your family. live your life happily.
We are citizens of the world and with the globalization that has spread, the ripple effect is going to be felt far and wide.
These Investment banks has presence in over 50 countries worldwide.
You can run, but you cannot hide.
You seem to be in this forum accusing me of discussing in this forum?:mad:Great. Get real. If I talk about the facts, it means I am spreading fear? If I stop talking about it, then the situation will magically go away? Nostradamus? I am saying what is in the news. Looks like you are predicting that everything will be fine and rosy. It is a free country. You want to disagree with me go ahead. Don't tell me not to talk about it.
Don't be delusional. I will be happy if things work out well for us. And don't think not talking about the problem will some how make it go away.
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prioritydate
12-20 04:26 PM
Please just dont worry about it too much , there are also chances that you may not get an RFE. There are chances that you may get an RFE but you dont know what USCIS will ask from you. You need to have RFE in hand to prepare response for that.
I know that I may or may not get an RFE. I just want to find out if any of you guys are in the same situation. I am sure that some people didn't worked due to the economic situation during 2000-2001. Since I am not entirely sure what should I do if I get an RFE, I just want to find out. If the IO ask me for a proof of work, then I may not provide it. I don't have w2, I didn't filed tax returns, don't have pay stubs; not sure what status I was in at that time. My i-94 was still valid, but I just didn't worked during that time period. If IO ask me to provide w2, I simply have to pack my bags!! :eek:
I know that I may or may not get an RFE. I just want to find out if any of you guys are in the same situation. I am sure that some people didn't worked due to the economic situation during 2000-2001. Since I am not entirely sure what should I do if I get an RFE, I just want to find out. If the IO ask me for a proof of work, then I may not provide it. I don't have w2, I didn't filed tax returns, don't have pay stubs; not sure what status I was in at that time. My i-94 was still valid, but I just didn't worked during that time period. If IO ask me to provide w2, I simply have to pack my bags!! :eek:
more...
sanju
09-26 09:39 AM
Whatever is the report on CNN, why do you have to draw an analogy between US and Indian? I mean, you think that there are only two nations in the world - US and India? Or do you think that all people on IV forums are from India? Sorry, it is not my objective to offend anybody but I find these analogies very funny. Also, I think such immature posts hurt our cause. You bring the forum�s attention to a good point, however, the post screwed-up in driving away non-Indian members on the forum. Also, if you hold a negative opinion about the place of your birth, how would you be able to develop a respect towards the country you want to as your future home?
Please be considerate towards the feelings of all nationalities on the forum. Just a suggestion....
Oh My God, CNN is screwing us in different way now. They are telling american people the Rally last week at SC was for increse in H1B and not for Incresed GCs.
I am getting freakled out by such American politics. I thought USA is different than INDIA atleast in this regard.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/25/smbusiness/h1b_cap.fsb/index.htm?postversion=2007092606
Please be considerate towards the feelings of all nationalities on the forum. Just a suggestion....
Oh My God, CNN is screwing us in different way now. They are telling american people the Rally last week at SC was for increse in H1B and not for Incresed GCs.
I am getting freakled out by such American politics. I thought USA is different than INDIA atleast in this regard.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/25/smbusiness/h1b_cap.fsb/index.htm?postversion=2007092606
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Guest007
12-12 05:11 PM
Nrc2008070886
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Legal_In_A_Limbo
03-10 09:12 AM
I changed 5 employers over the past 6 years, after I filed my GC. I never did AC21 with out them asking for it and I responded to only one RFE with whatever the document they requested and I mentioned that I used AC21 to change the job.
Seems like you file G-28 by yourself. We are also looking into doing that, but have not been able to get anyhelp. Can you please guide us about filling the G-28. We wil really appreciate that. Is there any particular format we need to follow?
Seems like you file G-28 by yourself. We are also looking into doing that, but have not been able to get anyhelp. Can you please guide us about filling the G-28. We wil really appreciate that. Is there any particular format we need to follow?
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sanjay
04-09 03:35 PM
No change. Wohi purani kahaani. Old wine in new bottle.
Would start looking for June now. But, won't expect any thing good until August 2010.
Would start looking for June now. But, won't expect any thing good until August 2010.
more...
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rpatel
07-24 12:08 PM
I concur with the fact that manner in which the law is written/interpreted currently, its going to be an uphill task to convince the USCIS of letting us file I485 without a visa number available. Did the core group make any effort in this direction or is it their foregone conclusion that its non starter at all?
I believe we should try to make an effort in this direction however small the chance of success may be. My reasons are following:
1. Even if the USCIS director might not have an authority to change the procedure without congressional intervention first, the effort required to convince a congress man/ congressional committe on this issue will be smaller compared to pushing them to take up SKIL immediately.
2. I dont know if Dept of Homeland Security might have any say in this but again we can try getting an audience with Negroponte to appraise him of the situation.
3. Thirdly since CIR/SKIL are currently in dormant stage, coregroup/volunteers might be more open to pursuing low potential/high yield effort like this one is.
I believe we should try to make an effort in this direction however small the chance of success may be. My reasons are following:
1. Even if the USCIS director might not have an authority to change the procedure without congressional intervention first, the effort required to convince a congress man/ congressional committe on this issue will be smaller compared to pushing them to take up SKIL immediately.
2. I dont know if Dept of Homeland Security might have any say in this but again we can try getting an audience with Negroponte to appraise him of the situation.
3. Thirdly since CIR/SKIL are currently in dormant stage, coregroup/volunteers might be more open to pursuing low potential/high yield effort like this one is.
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rpulipati
09-26 10:56 AM
FYI, this url has subject of "error in the story":
http://money.cnn.com/services/speakup/speakup.html
Thanks
http://money.cnn.com/services/speakup/speakup.html
Thanks
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paskal
01-26 02:46 AM
dear friend,
we would all like something to happen. but not everything is in our hands. nor do these things happen easily or quickly. the issues involved are now deeply emotional and political. much of what goes on is in the background and not for public consumption. there is a certain expectancy over immigration reform this year, we cannot afford to waste the sliver of opportunity that may present.
let me put two things to you simply:
1. if you keep waiting for "good news" to make your contribution, and if enough people think like you, well maybe it will never come. you see, the whole thing about iv is that we are trying to make our own destiny. without effort there will be no fruits. many people are making significant efforts, may be you have missed that on your visits to the forum. without the help of many more though, we are sunk.
2. your contribution is intended to create "good news", it is not some reward you hand out after success begins. i realize that you are feeling low and frustrated. please join this effort in earnest- the best way to feel positive is to know you are making your utmost effort. not just money, bring in members and join a state chapter, meet lawmakers and help with campaigns on the forum. If everyone did these things, we would be unstoppable.
please think about it. you have been waiting for months to see results from others hard work. maybe it's time to jump right in.
thanks for reading...
we would all like something to happen. but not everything is in our hands. nor do these things happen easily or quickly. the issues involved are now deeply emotional and political. much of what goes on is in the background and not for public consumption. there is a certain expectancy over immigration reform this year, we cannot afford to waste the sliver of opportunity that may present.
let me put two things to you simply:
1. if you keep waiting for "good news" to make your contribution, and if enough people think like you, well maybe it will never come. you see, the whole thing about iv is that we are trying to make our own destiny. without effort there will be no fruits. many people are making significant efforts, may be you have missed that on your visits to the forum. without the help of many more though, we are sunk.
2. your contribution is intended to create "good news", it is not some reward you hand out after success begins. i realize that you are feeling low and frustrated. please join this effort in earnest- the best way to feel positive is to know you are making your utmost effort. not just money, bring in members and join a state chapter, meet lawmakers and help with campaigns on the forum. If everyone did these things, we would be unstoppable.
please think about it. you have been waiting for months to see results from others hard work. maybe it's time to jump right in.
thanks for reading...
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Googler
02-20 02:54 PM
I'd posted elsewhere about my Feb 13, 2008 conversation with the DOS official who sets cutoff dates:
And then there this piece of info from Ron Gotcher posted on Feb 14, 2008
http://immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4285
"Last night, at a meeting of the American Immigration Lawyer's Assocation Southern California chapter, Charles Oppenheim spoke. Mr. Oppenheim is the officer within the Visa Office tasked with calculating visa bulletin cutoff dates each month. He offered the following thoughts as to cutoff date movement in the upcoming months:
In April, India and China EB2 will be set at 12/01/2003
EB3 for India and China will slow down for the rest of the fiscal year."
I am riveted by this because I spoke to Oppenheim just the day before this meeting (he referred to it). This was the conversation in which he told me that at present EB-2 India would only get numbers leftover from EB-1 India -- the problem is he doesn't know either exactly how many EB-2 India adjudicated applications there are in any specific PD range -- so every month he makes wild guesses, with the intent of using up visas. So I guess at least as of 2/14/08 he thought moving the date to 12/1/03 would more than mop up whatever was leftover from EB-1 India. Given the end of the FBI boondoggle (the effects of which have not been quantified by Oppenheim or USCIS) I'd predict that even a date in early 2002 would be good enough to mop up. Let us see if he changes his mind by mid March.
But his statement at the AILA meeting has been bothering me so I talked to him again today. Here is what he said -- that he is considering not only the EB-1 India excess, but the entire EB-1 worldwide excess being given to oversubscribed EB-2! I asked him about his earlier statement and he said that he had had a chance to look at the numbers and determine that unlike recent years EB-1 worldwide is not using numbers up at a rate that would max out EB-1 usage. BUT. He is waiting for USCIS to give him an estimate of the number of EB-2 India applications that would become eligible if he moves the cutoff dates up to 12/1/03, he will set the date ONLY after he gets that data and determines that there won't be too many within that cutoff date.
I also asked him to confirm that he was relying on his interpretation of Section 202(a)(5) (http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=cb90c19a50729fb47fb0686648558 dbe) of the INA in order to proceed with this spillover. This is his current interpretation of that section -- spillover from EB-1 to EB-2 IF there appears to be a worldwide excess in EB-1, when there is no worldwide excess in EB-1 then country specific spillover for example, from EB-1 India to EB-2 India only etc. In past years like FY06, EB-1 ROW was looking maxed out, so barely any spillover from EB-1 to oversubscribed EB-2.
And then there this piece of info from Ron Gotcher posted on Feb 14, 2008
http://immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4285
"Last night, at a meeting of the American Immigration Lawyer's Assocation Southern California chapter, Charles Oppenheim spoke. Mr. Oppenheim is the officer within the Visa Office tasked with calculating visa bulletin cutoff dates each month. He offered the following thoughts as to cutoff date movement in the upcoming months:
In April, India and China EB2 will be set at 12/01/2003
EB3 for India and China will slow down for the rest of the fiscal year."
I am riveted by this because I spoke to Oppenheim just the day before this meeting (he referred to it). This was the conversation in which he told me that at present EB-2 India would only get numbers leftover from EB-1 India -- the problem is he doesn't know either exactly how many EB-2 India adjudicated applications there are in any specific PD range -- so every month he makes wild guesses, with the intent of using up visas. So I guess at least as of 2/14/08 he thought moving the date to 12/1/03 would more than mop up whatever was leftover from EB-1 India. Given the end of the FBI boondoggle (the effects of which have not been quantified by Oppenheim or USCIS) I'd predict that even a date in early 2002 would be good enough to mop up. Let us see if he changes his mind by mid March.
But his statement at the AILA meeting has been bothering me so I talked to him again today. Here is what he said -- that he is considering not only the EB-1 India excess, but the entire EB-1 worldwide excess being given to oversubscribed EB-2! I asked him about his earlier statement and he said that he had had a chance to look at the numbers and determine that unlike recent years EB-1 worldwide is not using numbers up at a rate that would max out EB-1 usage. BUT. He is waiting for USCIS to give him an estimate of the number of EB-2 India applications that would become eligible if he moves the cutoff dates up to 12/1/03, he will set the date ONLY after he gets that data and determines that there won't be too many within that cutoff date.
I also asked him to confirm that he was relying on his interpretation of Section 202(a)(5) (http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=cb90c19a50729fb47fb0686648558 dbe) of the INA in order to proceed with this spillover. This is his current interpretation of that section -- spillover from EB-1 to EB-2 IF there appears to be a worldwide excess in EB-1, when there is no worldwide excess in EB-1 then country specific spillover for example, from EB-1 India to EB-2 India only etc. In past years like FY06, EB-1 ROW was looking maxed out, so barely any spillover from EB-1 to oversubscribed EB-2.
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485Mbe4001
07-11 03:35 PM
thanks. now wonder EB3 -I is screwed. I just need to apply in EB2.
Previously, the policy was that all worldwide numbers would fall down into worldwide third and then from there, fall across to the countries impacted by retrogression (i.e. India, China). The policy was recently clarified and today the unused numbers are allocated within the same preference classification.
Previously, the policy was that all worldwide numbers would fall down into worldwide third and then from there, fall across to the countries impacted by retrogression (i.e. India, China). The policy was recently clarified and today the unused numbers are allocated within the same preference classification.
greyhair
02-12 02:16 PM
hold on guys!!! i was the one who started this thread because i was not sure if ron was right or not but i guess seeing desi3933 comments that he is right and ron may not have the proof to justify this time.
it is good if we can get some proof of uscis wasting/not using visa but untill then please dont blame each other..
I feel the arguments desi3933 is giving.... makes most of the sense as compared to the last reply by ron which was like a general response instead of showing root cause of 13k visa lost.
peace V
Please let me clarify. This is not a question of ambiguity in the meaning of the message. Its crystal clear. One immigration body shop said that 13K visas are wasted by USCIS. It has been proven with facts that the statement made by immigration body shop is factually incorrect. Its not the first time. But you continue to ask others to look for proof of USCIS wasting visa numbers even after looking at the data. I am totally perplexed by the obsession with immigration body shop when repeatedly similar inflaming messages have been discredited in the public arena. :confused: When is enough, enough.
it is good if we can get some proof of uscis wasting/not using visa but untill then please dont blame each other..
I feel the arguments desi3933 is giving.... makes most of the sense as compared to the last reply by ron which was like a general response instead of showing root cause of 13k visa lost.
peace V
Please let me clarify. This is not a question of ambiguity in the meaning of the message. Its crystal clear. One immigration body shop said that 13K visas are wasted by USCIS. It has been proven with facts that the statement made by immigration body shop is factually incorrect. Its not the first time. But you continue to ask others to look for proof of USCIS wasting visa numbers even after looking at the data. I am totally perplexed by the obsession with immigration body shop when repeatedly similar inflaming messages have been discredited in the public arena. :confused: When is enough, enough.
aka
04-24 12:12 PM
Congrats Googler, you have given so much to this community. You totally deserve the good news! Have a couple of cold ones on us...
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